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Old 11 Jan 2002, 09:45 PM   #1
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Thumbs up Congressman against DMCA "anti-circumvention" clause

In regards to this article :

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/ne...101325,00.html

If this bill passes, DVD ripping and backup will be completely legal, something that it should have been in the first place.

I am a little skeptical about the chances of this bill passing, but there is always hope, and that the fact that someone is willing to raise this issue, means that the debate is still ongoing.

What do you think?
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Old 13 Jan 2002, 09:35 AM   #2
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I agree with you, it's good to have hope on this one. Of course I'm aware of the DMCA although I don't live in the USA, but even outside the USA, there's lots of publicity for it, and it's an issue. I don't think there's a similar law elsewhere, though, or if there is, it's passed my attention by.

Here's my big gripe about the whole copy protection and DMCA thing. I respect that artists and studios want to protect copyright, but that's what existing copyright laws are for. DMCA paves the way for much more.

What do I mean? Well, if it actually became enforceable, that you couldn't even make backups of any movies or music you've bought, then the next thing we'll see is degradeable DVD's. Yep, a DVD that only lasts a year. Or even less, the times they would last would get progressively shorter, too. At the moment, if you like a movie, you can buy it, keep it and watch it again and again, as many times as you like. And if you go off it after a while, you can flog it second hand.

But the industry doesn't like this. So, in the future, you won't be able to sell second hand DVD's because they won't work. And if you like a movie enough to want to keep watching it again and again, then you'll have to keep on buying replacement copies of it.

You might think, naahhh, they'll never try that on, that would just take the piss. But I think DMCA paves the way for it, which is why it's very very important that it's crushed.
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Old 13 Jan 2002, 09:47 AM   #3
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Actually, here's an idea. When you buy a CD or DVD, try playing it on all your equipment, and ripping it. If anything doesn't work, then exercise your right to return the product and get your money back. If everyone did this, then the industry would soon wake up, with any luck. Mind you, I don't hold out much hope of a big consumer led campaign to get everyone to do this every time.
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Old 19 Jan 2002, 03:05 AM   #4
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Why does this madder anyway? even if if doesnt pass people will just keep doinf what they have been doing for years. They find a way to put copy protection and we get around it. Whatever they do will not stop us from doing what we have done for such a long time. I thiknk eventually they will just fase the facts and give up.
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Old 19 Jan 2002, 04:22 AM   #5
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I thought this article was interesting:

http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware...ected_cd.shtml

I don't think legislation would stop people copying CDs in any case. Also, with CD (and now DVD) being established formats, there's not too much I feel they could throw at us in terms of copy protection.

As the article above says, CD copy protection is going to be useless as altered subcodes in CD's can be copied using cloneCD etc. and the same just wouldn't work for DVD.

I think it will take a year or so, when napster, pressplay, etc. start turning huge losses, before the music industry sees sense.

I, like a lot of people, like to have loads of mp3z on my computer because it's practical, but I am a music fan and i'm not bothered about spending cash on good music. I don't buy singles and never have because they're overpriced.

I think the music industry is upset because far too many bands are releasing music to make money, and thankfully we can now download their albums, see they're crap, and not bother getting them. They feel they've missed out on the internet revolution and are trying to make money where there just isn't any.

And if they think time-protected DVD's are a good idea, then I guess they should just look at circuit city and their wonderful DivX system!
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Old 19 Jan 2002, 05:47 AM   #6
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I certainly respect Deus's and msisson's optimistic points of view. And you're right, time protected divx collapsed, the consumer couldn't be fooled so easily, fortunately.

But then again, what is it that makes you keep buying replacement washing machines and refrigerators every few years?

I would have made a similar example with computer and home entertainment equipment, but that wouldn't be such a good example, because computer equipment is gradually getting more and more powerful and capable of more things, which is a good thing.

But you can't honestly tell me that a fridge you buy today will do anything that a fridge you bought twenty years won't do. Except, of course, that it will work at all. You don't expect a fridge to continue to function after twenty years.

And that's my point. Built in obsolescence. Things are made to wear out, and not to last, so that you keep buying replacements. I'm confident of being able to rip pretty much any CD or DVD and make a backup of its content, but I'd still be annoyed if the media itself degraded. That's different to software based time protection such as the old divx system.

It's also why I never took VHS that seriously, I've never had my own VHS player. The quality was never brilliant, and tapes used to degrade far too quickly for my liking! I think that the entertainment industry is starting to worry that it's shot itself in the foot by inventing DVD in the first place.

Last edited by squidgy; 19 Jan 2002 at 05:49 AM
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Old 19 Jan 2002, 06:26 AM   #7
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yeah, i agree about the vhs thing, i only bought a (very cheap) video recorder to rip vhs to divx (only for good films that aren't out on dvd yet - back to the future, italian job)

Also true about built-in obsolescence - expect a very encrypted next-gen cd/dvd as the legislation governing encryption exports has expired (so us poor people in the uk are allowed to use 128-bit at last) but essentially people aren't going to buy something they see no need for. Assuming all this copy protection lark for cd's blows over, how many of your friends have told you they're looking forward to getting an SACD player? or DVD-Audio? i'm guessing none - though i may be wrong... I'm quite happy with CD too, and I really don't think people will buy the whole "better sound quality (though only with a Ģ10,000 hi-fi and perfect ears, and by the way we'll not let you copy off it) thing as its pointless. CD will be around for another 10 years, easy. And besides, when has a 2.8Mhz samling rate and increased dynamic range ever made the backstreet boys sound anything less than shite?
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Old 19 Jan 2002, 11:20 PM   #8
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true about backstreet boys! I hope you're right about consumers not getting things they don't see a need for, I think you probably are. Still doesn't stop the industry from putting out CD's and DVD's that play on existing players when they are new, but are made from a lower grade material that degrades more quickly than CD's and DVD's currently available now.

Actually, time to be honest, I'll tell you where I'm coming from on this one. Windows 98 second edition CDROM that I got a year and a half ago, didn't come in a jewel pack, but I thought, yeah, CD's last a good while, so I never bothered to make a backup of it. And now it's unreadable! Whoops! It means that I'm on my guard a bit more than I used to be, though.
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Old 27 Jan 2002, 03:12 AM   #9
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I have hope in how hackers will always find a way around encryption. Remember when they said the CSS encryption in DVDs was unbreakable? HA! We hackers destroyed thier puny sytem and now we have the ability to backup our DVDs. I am so sick of how the entertainment industry always trys to feed us bullshit that the media belongs to them and not to the person that actually paid for the thing. And it's not like I'm gonna sell a DVD rip at school afterwards (I've tried and those stupid freshmen didn't even know how to pronounce DivX, or play it). I just wanna make backups of my stuff because in my house, if you don't backup or hide your shit, some 7yr will destroy it just because I wouldn't let him watch it with all the language and violence. The media belongs to us and not them! Remember when the drummer to metalica complained about Napster stealing thier business? Look at the facts: when napster was still existed, CD sales only dropped about 2%, and it's the same situation with Kazaa and movies. I downloaded a DVD rip of Fight Club and i'll buy the DVD anyway. Why? Because the picture looked like shit! The guys who ripped it cut the framerate down to 12.5 fps and the sound was like 22khz. So even though I saw it on the internet, they will still be getting my business. But if the DMCA ever tries this encypted CD bullshit, I will be leading a boycott of the music industry

Who's with me?

Last edited by grif_mcrenolds; 27 Jan 2002 at 03:18 AM
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Old 27 Jan 2002, 09:40 AM   #10
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Yay! Totally with you!

Do you reckon there's a chance that we might get the press on our side too? I'm a bit worried by the fact that movie and music publishers tend to be big media companies that control TV and newspapers too, like Bertelsmann for example, but hey, we'll try not to let that get in the way. (oh whoops, forgot, it's actually bertelsmann media that owns Napster now .... still, you know how popular that's made Napster recently .... NOT!!)
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Old 13 Feb 2002, 11:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by grif_mcrenolds
I have hope in how hackers will always find a way around encryption. Remember when they said the CSS encryption in DVDs was unbreakable? HA! We hackers destroyed thier puny sytem and now we have the ability to backup our DVDs.
Unfortunatly no one has "hacked" the DVD-Audio encryption just yet... Even though itīs been out for some time now... The lack of interest must be the main reason...
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Old 13 Feb 2002, 12:54 PM   #12
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Default Philips VS ...

Quote:
Unfortunatly no one has "hacked" the DVD-Audio encryption just yet... Even though itīs been out for some time now... The lack of interest must be the main reason...
Good point!!

On related news, Philips, one of the founders of the compact disc, has come out in defense of consumers and wants Audio CDs with copy protection to be excluded from using the official "Compact Disc" logo, since these copy protected CDs may no longer playback on computers, and obviously doesn't fit into the original CD specifications.

More information here :

http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020206_e...ips_alert.html

What do you think?
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Old 15 Feb 2002, 10:51 AM   #13
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Default protected CDs

(Sigh of relief) When I first read an article that announced the plan to copy protect CDs, I almost smashed the moniter (but I couldn't because it was a PC in the school computer lab.) The idea of copy protecting CDs in such a manner of preventing them from even PLAYING on computers is proposterous! I don't even share music anyway! I just backup audio to MP3s or try remixing songs for fun. I don't do anything that breaks the law. Why should I be punished when I don't even violate copyright law in the first place? Preventing CDs from even PLAYING on computers would suck because my stereo IS a computer! I use my PCs surround card for playing CDs so I can hear the music in surround (simulated, the CDs don't come in surround.)

A funny thing about all this is that whoever tried to pull this (ie record companies) stunt did it in such a crude fashion. Instead of trying something interesting like CSS, like DVDs, they tried changing the physical attributes of the CD itself (which is probably why Phillips wouldn't let them call it Compact Disc.) They changed the way it's pressed so the data layer is intentially damaged so CD-ROM drives would reject the disc, but CD players wouldn't detect errors. Even if they succeeded at this, all we would have to do is design a CD-ROM drive that wouldn't reject damaged discs (but they would predictably sue the manufacturer, being as evil as record companies are.) Luckilly, our hero Phillips, who helped design the CD and DVD, saved the day in this cowardly attempt by the DMCA to screw the consumer. I'm not one of those liberals who think all businesses are evil, but I do know when I'm getting screwed by the producer.

Off topic: Has anybody heard any news about development of the 148 minute CD (1.2 GB)? I learned in infotech today that there's such thing as 99 minute CDs (I was embarresed that I didn't know about them before), and that the fabled 148 mintute disc was in development. Is it supposed to be dual layered or something? And will it be compatible with average CD players and drives?

Last edited by grif_mcrenolds; 15 Feb 2002 at 10:54 AM
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Old 25 Feb 2002, 12:38 AM   #14
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I use a computer as the hub of my entertainment system. I have hundreds of CD's, and I keep them all on my hard drive. When I buy a new one, I rip it at high quality, burn a backup of the rip so I don't need to waste my time doing it again, and throw all the CD's in the closet. I don't even own a stereo anymore, just a nice set of speakers and a good sound card.

I know what I'll do the day I buy one of these CD's that won't play in the computer I spend all this money on. I'll be getting a friend to bring his stereo by my place, feeding the stereo into my sound card, and capturing the music I paid for. Then I'll be compiling a protection free conventional cd, burning 50 copies, and leaving them on peoples doorsteps with a nice letter of explanation. Perhaps I'll also send a copy of CD and letter to some TV station or newspaper, just to draw attention to the whole thing.

Dunno what the prices are like elsewhere, but CD's are 30 bucks here, so I can buy 50 blank disks out of my own pocket and cost the recording companies 1500 dollars. If anyone copies my idea, it'll cost them lots more.

Laws are all well and good, but in the meantime, I don't mind spending a little money to punish the bastards for ripping me off. I'm actually a little anxious to get my first bum disk!
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 09:51 PM   #15
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I just know some things:

1. You can ALWAYS copy cd's. They can protect cd's digitally but never analogue. So if you have a protected cd's and you own a good soundcard and a good cd-player just use the line-in and start recoding.
I assure you: there's no loss of quality.

2. For DVD's. The DVD is a great invention BUT the entertainment industry and particalary the movie industrie is digging his own grave. They saw what happened with music when mp3 was born and Napster. But they were too stupid to realise what will happen with the movie industry = the same thing!!
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