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Old 16 May 2006, 03:22 AM   #1
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Default IVTC with latest RB 1.09.2

Hi @ll

I tried to apply an ivtc script to a NTSC dvd but the final size differs like 3/4 of the final dvdr size of 4,37gb (CCE encoder used). Yes i know the script is decimating frames so dvdrb doesnt know the frame count after it seems. My question is how to get around this problem and to get a proper size with pulldown flag on the final rebuild so that audio/video is sync.


LoadPlugin("C:\TIVTC.dll")
TFM(order=1,mode=0)
tdecimate(mode=1,hybrid=0)

thank you very much

Last edited by arcueid; 16 May 2006 at 03:25 AM
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Old 17 May 2006, 01:12 PM   #2
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Why do you need to IVTC? DVD-RB will reproduce a telecined source correctly at 23.976 with TFF/RFF flags set for telecining. It won't allow you to change the framerate of the original.
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Old 18 May 2006, 10:24 PM   #3
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Default hi

Hi jdobbs

Well the source dvd is interlaced (hybrid source with 23.97fps telecined and 29.97 fps interlaced parts). Well and I like to IVTC it so i can watch it properly on my projector since the quality of deinterlacing with powerdvd and "bob/weave" is the worst thing ever happened. Yes its no 23.97fps source with pulldown flag like on the most recent movies also known as "progressive ntsc dvd".
Its just some feature really missing there in RB since 90% of the R1 dvds i have are made like that.

regards
arc
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Old 21 May 2006, 02:02 AM   #4
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If you try to inverse telecine a hybrid source you will get poor motion (jumpiness) in the non-telecined sections because they will be improperly decimated. It's really a bad idea. Unlike other reencoding methods, DVD Rebuilder is designed to properly handle hybrid sources and it will reproduce them exactly as they were on the original disc.
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Old 24 May 2006, 06:00 AM   #5
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Quote:
Its just some feature really missing there in RB since 90% of the R1 dvds i have are made like that.
This makes me believe you have a misunderstanding as to what telecining is and how it works. You don't have to use IVTC on a telecined source with DVD-RB. It reads it and recreates it correctly at the 23.976fps with pulldown flags.

Inverse telecining is only necessary on hard telecined sources or if you are using one of the ancient methods of frame serving that feeds the telecined frames. DVD-RB reads the raw frames as they are stored. Hard telecining is probably only found on about one out of a thousand commercial discs...

Last edited by jdobbs; 24 May 2006 at 06:05 AM
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Old 24 May 2006, 11:45 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbs
...Hard telecining is probably only found on about one out of a thousand commercial discs...
I wonder jdobbs do you have a couple titles like this that you can cite (just OTTOYH)?
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Old 25 May 2006, 10:12 PM   #7
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I did find one, but it was a long time ago and I've forgotten the title. It was an old movie that was also widescreen encapsulated in 4:3 format...

Most of the time if you actually do see a hard-telecined source it is because someone recorded it directly from television or tape (e.g. pirated movies) and no reputable authoring house would do it that way. DVD-RB will still work with those -- but they'll be copied in the same format as the original (hard telecined).

Last edited by jdobbs; 25 May 2006 at 10:15 PM
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Old 26 May 2006, 12:25 AM   #8
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I wanted to see if maybe I had one in my collection, honestly because I wasn't sure I understood what "hard telecined sources" were.

Without looking it up, I would guess that it was a film source that was transferred to video without the use of "pulldown flags" i.e. all the extra frames necessary to make a 24fps film into a 30fps video exist on the DVD.

If I'm wrong I hope you will slap-me-back. I'm trying hard to learn this stuff!

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Old 26 May 2006, 01:51 AM   #9
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Exactly. For example, suppose you recorded a movie on a VCR from a television channel. Also assume that the television studio applied pulldown to a FILM source (not always true -- but assume so for the example). When they transmit it over-the-air via NTSC it has to be 29.97fps, so the telecined frames (created via pulldown) are transmitted too. The VCR would record all the frames received -- including those that were created via telecining.

An IVTC algorithm could find the telecined frames and remove them giving you a 23.976 result -- which is very much more compressible and doesn't waste bits.

DVDs FILM sources on NTSC, though, (except for that rare exception I mentioned) are actually stored as 23.976 on the disc with flags set for telecining. So there is no IVTC needed unless you are using a frame server that is actually creating the telecined frames.
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Old 26 May 2006, 05:51 AM   #10
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Thanks for the very clear tutorial--I appreciate it very much!

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Old 11 May 2007, 09:01 PM   #11
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Well hard-telecined source may be much closer - it is Babylon 5 series (R1 first release - "first" because of some hope for hypotetical second release which will follow somedays). ivtc'ing of that series is the question which I working on right now. TFM/TDecimate work quite well but as long as now I wasn't smart enough to decide how to put them in DVD-RB workflow

TFM(d2v="D:\recoded_b5s4d2b\DGIndex_Project_file.d 2v",order=1,mode=0,hint=true,slow=2)
TDecimate(hint=true,mode=0,hybrid=1,conCycle=2,cyc leR=1,nt=2,denoise=true)

Point which confuses me is d2v=.... for TFM, DVD-RB cuts task in small parts and I don't know how to combine this fact with TFM arguements
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Old 11 May 2007, 09:25 PM   #12
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You can't decimate with DVD-RB. It changes the framecount between PREPARE and REBUILD and will generate errors.
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Old 18 May 2007, 07:39 PM   #13
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Lightbulb-2 so, IVTC'ing through DVD-RB is officially impossible

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
You can't decimate with DVD-RB. It changes the framecount between PREPARE and REBUILD and will generate errors.
It is good to know that for sure - during last few days I have met strange results (heavily desynchronized audiotrack and black square instead of last part of video) triing to do exactly that things. So now I know what I did wrong way
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Old 18 May 2007, 08:42 PM   #14
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Default TIVTC and CCE

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcueid View Post
I tried to apply an ivtc script to a NTSC dvd but the final size differs like 3/4 of the final dvdr size of 4,37gb (CCE encoder used). Yes i know the script is decimating frames so dvdrb doesnt know the frame count after it seems. My question is how to get around this problem and to get a proper size with pulldown flag on the final rebuild so that audio/video is sync
May be it will be useful for your next step: I have performed TIVTC through DVD2SVCD (in this case you must use NTFS for DVD5-size projects) and met some difficulties when standart CCE (2.70 SP retail version) settings lead to situation when output m2v, if I could be able to describe results correctly, wasn't pulldowned neither by CCE not by DVD2SVCD. And when I imported the m2v to DVD Lab the last one reports "it must be pulldowned before importing". For now I've been trying 24fps or auto(fps) settings in CCE's template and it looks like it generates .m2v which DVD2SVCD accepts for automatic pulldown.

Another point which stays unclear for me is DF flag in CCE's template. It looks like it has to be activated for NTSC video which has to be pulldowned, but I am not sure. Also, it is not activated by default...
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